Episode 52: Empire and the Kingdom of God – “A Power Analysis of the Temple and the Contemporary Church.”

Today’s episode of the Antioch Podcast is titled EMPIRE AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD: A Power Analysis of the Temple and the Contemporary Church, comparing the center and margins of power from the past to the present. Using a power analysis is a useful way to learn who serves and is served by systems and institutions. It also helps us analyze how to be a more just body of Christ. There is an accompanying video of this section of the podcast, which is offered as a free teaching tool. You can view this video on the Antioch Podcast’s YouTube Channel, by following this link:

Empire and the Kingdom of God

To conclude this episode on centers and margins of power, I’d like to share with you an example of someone who changed his perspective as a leader, the recently sainted Catholic Archbishop, Oscar Romero. I read about his story in a recent article written by Kate Kooyman, and asked her if she would share her article with us on the Antioch Podcast.

Kate Kooyman is a minister in the Reformed Church in America, and works at the CRC’s Office of Social Justice. She is s a regular contributor to the Reformed Journal’s blog, and her writing also can be found on her website www.katekooyman.com. Kate often writes about the intersection of faith and politics.

Episode 51: Pastor Adam Edgerly – “Third Culture Calling.”

This episode of the Antioch Podcast features Pastor Adam Edgerly, and his message “Third Culture Calling” which he gave at Madison Church’s North Campus earlier this month. Adam Edgerly is an interculturalist and the CEO of Culture Consultants, working to help senior executives achieve peak performance through executive coaching and leadership training. He also has been hired by Madison Church (who hosts the Antioch Podcast) to help us become a more effective church at our cross-cultural mission. He has led retreats and workshops on five continents for thousands of participants. He holds a Master of Arts degree in intercultural studies from Biola University and a Master of Business Administration from Emory University.

Adam also serves as lead pastor of Newsong Los Angeles Covenant Church, a multicultural community committed to reconciliation in Christ. Prior to his ministry at Newsong LA, Adam served the Evangelical Covenant Church denomination as the associate director of global evangelism and regional director of church planting and community transformation.

Adam lives in Southern California, where he enjoys spending time at the beach with his wife and daughter.

Transition Music Credits:

Psalm 104 sung in ancient Hebrew by Yamma Ensemble.

Thanasis Kleopas-Hymn to muse Kalliope and Apollo

Episode 50: “A City Within A City” – The Mustache Saga

On this episode of the Antioch Podcast, we will be exploring the rise of black youth protest in Chapter 4 of A City Within A City. For those of you just joining us, we have been looking at the black freedom struggle in Grand Rapids, Michigan from the first Great Migration to the present. Grand Rapids is a “second tier city”, a smaller city whose African American population addressed the racism it encountered in way which both mirrored, and diverged from, the broader struggle for civil rights in the United States. The unique signature of racism in this area, and area known for its many churches and Christian institutions, contains theological and church policy threads which which we are illuminating alongside the narrative provided in the historical narrative recorded by Todd E. Robinson in his book.

We pick up the story in the 1960’s outside South High, the formerly “elite” public High School which over time found itself on the edge of the red-lined neighborhoods in which African-Americans were forced to reside. One thing we know is true about racism: racism rarely disappears. Rather than being eradicated through the conviction of conscience and subsequent policy reforms, racism is more likely to re-invent itself to keep up with the times. American history is littered with examples of how racist policy changes in one aspect only: the use of language. Policies with racist effects began changing during this period from policies written in overt and offensive racist language, to more subtle coded language that still had the effect of legalized racial oppression. To the white person mildly aware of racial injustice, the language change may have seemed to be “progressive” or even “kind”, while maintaining the system of racial segregation intact. To African-Americans and other people of color, the change of language did nothing to address the compounded generational inequity created by the generations of racist policies of the broader white society.

In the case of South High, the form that racism took was in a strictly enforced school-wide dress code. At South High, where 30% of the students were African-American, the dress code was more rigidly interpreted, and more zealously enforced, than at any of the other – whiter – public high schools in the district. The school dress code covered skirts, shirts, slacks, socks, shoes and short hair, but did not set standards set for facial hair – short or otherwise. It was this policy that pushed one High School Senior, Cleo Cross, to decide he was not going to be pushed around any more. This incident became known as the “Mustache Saga”. His stand would briefly land him in the national spotlight, with the racism of Grand Rapids in his shadow. It was the first time that the managerial racism endemic to Grand Rapids was ineffective at a grand scale.

We will explore how this story unfolded, as well as explore some of the thinking – especially theological thinking – which may have been present in the white community which would have fed their complicity with racism.

Episode 49: “A City Within A City” – The Origins of Segregated Space

This episode of the Antioch Podcast is a deep dive into how the process of redlining affected people living in Grand Rapids. Redlining, for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term, refers to the “red lines” drawn by the Home Owner’s Loan Corporation on Residential Security Maps indicating the desirability of neighborhoods. These maps were used by the Federal Housing Authority to determine property values. Properties were given a letter grade of A through D, with each grade depicted on these maps using a corresponding four-point color code in descending order: green, blue, yellow and red. Red, the color given to “D-grade” properties, indicated neighborhoods that were “characterized by a detrimental influence in a pronounced degree, undesirable population or infiltration of it.” The letter grades, and their corresponding color assignments, were designated based on the number of people of color living in each neighborhood. Black real-estate agents were kept off the committees who designated the neighborhood grades.

The fear of declining property values drove white city residents to either refuse to sell their homes to black buyers, or to sell their homes in the city and build new homes in emerging city neighborhoods like Burton Heights and Alger Heights within Grand Rapids proper. But for some, these city neighborhoods were still too close, and suburbs seemed like safer investments. This pattern of white flight outside the city spawned the growth of the bedroom communities of Comstock Park, Wyoming, Grandville, Jenison, Rockford, Kentwood and Ada among others. The post WWII building boom was effectively fueled by members of Eastern European ethnicities, who now were starting to view themselves as “white” in differentiation to blacks. The shared racial prejudice of these white ethnics was that blacks as a group were “risky financial investments, ” categorically refusing them loans based on their race, which they could have used to either improve their homes in the city, or obtain better housing elsewhere as whites were doing. This was not the case for whites.

The most ubiquitous example of the systemic white privilege during this time was the availability of new housing loans to white veterans after WWII. The white veterans of WWII came back in large numbers, ready to start families and begin living the American dream. Because of their whiteness, they were perceived as safe loan risks, and were therefore eligible for subsidized loans through the federal GI Bill. Many of these white vets took these loans and used them to build new homes in the newly created all-white suburbs, thereby increasing their generational wealth while creating segregated suburban spaces that would last generations.

Meanwhile in the central city of Grand Rapids, African-Americans were restricted to live within the already dilapidated housing stock of the red-lined areas of the city. Only 5% of African-Americans lived outside these boundaries. This was the period of the Second Great Migration when many blacks fled the racial tyranny of the South and came North in hopes of better lives and jobs in the industrial boom taking place in larger Northern cities. But the red-lines stayed in place, and these newcomers were forced to live within this limited area, overcrowding these squalid homes beyond their intended capacities. Most white Christians were complicit with, and profited from, this racial injustice. The alarming level of overcrowding, coupled with the overcrowded public schools in these areas, set the stage for the next few chapters in this story.

Episode 48: Jackson Beelen & Natalie Wierenga – “The City Within a City Interlude.”

This episode is an interlude between the chapters of the City Within a City series. We will return to Chapter 3 in the next episode of the Antioch Podcast. Chapter 3 tells the story of how redlining affected people in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So before we tell this story, we will hear the stories of two people (who both happen to be good friends of mine), Jackson Beelen and Natalie Wierenga, whose lives have been notably impacted by the legacy of redlining.

Jackson Beelen is a singer-songwriter living in Grand Rapids, Michigan with his wife and their son. Jackson Beelen grew up very aware of the history of redlining in his neighborhood, as both his childhood home, as well as his present home, literally reside in the very perimeter neighborhoods where the battles over redlining were fought. Being a multi-racial person in this neighborhood meant that he grew up as a living challenge to the legacy of segregation in Grand Rapids. It also meant that he was exposed to – and incorporated – musical and ideological influences which many people would not put together. This is notably expressed in his songwriting and music.

Jackson’s lyrics bear the mark of someone who grew up in a family of pastors, artfully weaving threads of poetic theology through the strands of his everyday insights and observations. While many of his songs draw their inspiration from people around him, other songs are reflections of his inner journey. This journey has taken a number of twists and turns, as Jackson is the first to admit. He is all-too familiar with the terrain of the valley of the shadow of death, and while he is no stranger to darkness, God has insured that the darkness did not overcome him.

Natalie Wierenga is a college student studying Music and Worship at Kuyper College in Grand Rapids, Michigan with a passion for ministry in urban settings. Natalie, who is white, was raised in Rockford, Michigan, a mono-ethnic bedroom community outside of Grand Rapids. Growing up, she had few meaningful interactions with people of color. However, she both feels called to this kind of ministry, and knows that she may be underequipped for this kind of work as a white woman whose life experiences have taken place nearly exclusively in mono-ethnic suburban and rural contexts. Because this has been her experience, she has devoted herself as a college student to learning about the many ways in which her whiteness and gender have shaped her, as well as learning about the legacy of racism in the church, and in the city of Grand Rapids, where she now is studying. As part of her unlearning, she did a project at the end of her most recent semester called “Redlining Sent Me To College.” We will hear a bit about this presentation in the second-half of the podcast.

Episode 47: “A City Within A City” – Citizen’s Action

This episode we will go in-depth into chapter 2 of the book City Within a City by Dr. Todd E. Robinson, entitled Citizen’s Action: Managerial Racism and Reform Politics. This chapter covers the decades of the 1940’s and 50’s when the Republican Party, city government, and local business mixed their influences in managing the city of Grand Rapids. We will look at how African-Americans fared and responded to the challenges they faced in the city by looking at four stories: The story of Paul Phillips and the Grand Rapids Urban League, the story of Hillary Bissell and the Grand Rapids chapter of the NAACP, the story of Helen Claytor and the Human Relations Commission, and how all three of these individuals (and their respective organizations) joined forces to address the educational inequality and school overcrowding that was a result of the de-facto segregation of Grand Rapids Public Schools.

Episode 46: “A City Within a City” – Rowing, Not Drifting

Racism is not, and never has been, a monolithic abstraction. It has roots, stories, and histories. Racism has a geographical signature because places shape the way racism is expressed and experienced. These signatures look different from place to place, in spite of some similar generalities. For example, racism in rural communities looked different from racism in suburban areas, which looked different from racism within cities because different types of people are attracted to all three of these kinds of living environments. The concerns of farmers are different from the concerns of people who commute to work, for example. Even today, racism is expressed in the Northern United States in ways that differ from how it is expressed in the South or the West. And the history of racism also shows a distinct difference in how racism was expressed in large from its expression in secondary cities.

The Antioch Podcast’s home base is in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a city known for its furniture manufacturers, its churches, and its Christian colleges and publishing houses. Because this is our home city, we are going to take a series of episodes to explore how racism has been uniquely expressed and experienced in our city, a “secondary city” using the book A City Within a City: The Black Freedom Struggle in Grand Rapids, Michigan, by Dr. Todd E. Robinson. Robinson’s book does not begin with the history of how the land for this city was taken from the Council of the Three Fires by European Immigrants during the Treaty of Chicago in 1821. We want to acknowledge that this too is part of the story of this land. Grand Rapids grew from a trading post on the Grand River to the second-most populated city in the state. And this is the point where Robinson’s book begins. His book tells the story of African Americans who began coming to this city between 1910 to 1940, as a part of the First Great Migration, and how they continued to struggle to become free in this city.

Idella Winfied was unable to join us for this roundtable discussion of chapter 1, but Pastor Reggie Smith and I were able to sit down together and discuss this first chapter, entitled “Rowing, Not Drifting”.

Episode 45: An Antioch Roundtable – “Understanding White Supremacy Culture.”

The Antioch Podcast was initially conceived as a podcast of recorded conversations among friends and leaders at Madison Church – the multi-site church who hosts our podcast – about learning to lead in multiethnic churches. We started making these recordings in the autumn of 2016 with a team of three leaders, completely unaware of what changes were on the horizon for our church, and our nation.

The rhetoric of Donald Trump leading up to, and following his election, widened racial animosities in the United States. Once in power, the rapid number of policy decisions his administration made disproportionately had a negative effect among communities of color, making fellowship in multiethnic churches all the more difficult. Madison Church also was affected. A number of key anti-racist staff members at Madison Church felt this strain in particular, making it difficult to want to engage in additional discussions about race and injustice. Race fatigue is a real thing, and I respect when people need to have boundaries around their time, especially for doing something as emotionally taxing as discussing race and injustice.

I talked with one of my friends and mentors, herself a person of color, who encouraged me to keep going with the podcast project, even if I was finding it difficult to gather a table of friends together to do this. I was concerned that my whiteness – my singular white, cisgender, middle-class, male viewpoint – would affect the kinds of conversations and insights that needed to be expressed on a podcast about leading in the multi-ethnic church. And yes, it is important for white people to take ownership of doing some of the hard kinds of anti-racism work that people of color too often find themselves doing, particularly in the wearying area of educating other white people (whom we will likely have more affinity with) about the injustices people of color so often face. But in proceeding with the podcast, I didn’t want to be a lone cowboy, and I strongly believed that I needed to continue to be informed by – and accountable to – other people of color.

Here is why I felt strongly about this. No one of us is free of bias, and I was quite concerned that my unchecked biases would erode the multi-perspectival DNA these kinds of issues need to be informed by. Every one of us has a viewpoint to contribute to the body of Christ. We need each other, even when we don’t know how it is all going to work out. That is when it is especially important to rely on the Holy Spirit, knowing that Jesus is the head of the church, and the trinity will continue to have ownership of it after our moment of influence has come and gone.

So, for a couple of years now, I’ve tried to do interviews, with the mentorship of my friend, mainly focused on listening to voices, perspectives, and ideas of people of color whose views inform conversations about church leadership in a multiethnic world. But I continued to long for the possibility of pulling together a small group of people who regularly discussed topics relating to the anti-racist mission of the Antioch Podcast.

Fast-forward to the present. After numerous conversations, a couple of people agreed to give these podcast conversations a try. Both of them work professionally in denominational-level church ministry in the areas of both social justice and race relations, as well as being people who have invested decades of their lives in cross-racial conversation and advocacy. In addition to their knowledge and wisdom, Pastor Reggie Smith and Idella Winfield are my friends, who have shared their own struggles with me, and who have in turn listened to mine and help me process my own cross-racial journey. So, in the ensuing episodes of the Antioch Podcast, Pastor Reggie and Idella will be my partners on this anti-racist podcast journey. To both of you, thank you, and welcome!

This episode of the Antioch Podcast, the Antioch team responds to Dr. Tema Okun’s article “White Supremacy Culture”. For those of you unfamiliar with her work, here is her online author’s bio for her book The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race And Racism To People Who Don’t Want To Know.

Tema Okun has spent many years working for and in the social justice community. For over 10 of those years she worked in partnership with the late and beloved Kenneth Jones as part of the ChangeWork training group and now facilitates long-term anti-racism, anti-oppression work as a member of the DRworks collaborative. She is a skilled and experienced facilitator, bringing both an anti-racist lens and commitment to supporting personal growth and development within the context of institutional and community mission. She holds a BA from Oberlin College, a Masters in Adult Education from N.C. State University, a doctorate from UNC-Greensboro and is on the faculty of the Educational Leadership Department at National Louis University in Chicago. She is active in Middle East peace and justice work with the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions-USA.

If you have not read Dr. Okun’s article, take a moment to read it by clicking the link provided in the shownotes below before listening in on our conversation.


Episode 44: Indigenous Christian’s Roundtable – “The Blanket Exercise.”

The indigenous nations that originally populated North America now make up approximately 2% of the US population (1) and 4% of the Canadian Population (2) . Two-thirds of aboriginal Canadians remain with the Christian church despite the fraught history (3). 10% of Native-Americans in the United States call themselves Christians (4). The story of how the indigenous people of North America were nearly exterminated is largely unknown to many. Most people have little knowledge of the roles that faith communities played in this story. But there are a rising number of truth-tellers in the Indigenous community who are trying to make their stories, and the stories of their peoples known. Their voices are critical for nations and churches to hear, understand, and wrestle with what it means to meaningfully repent in the present. We can only begin this healing journey once all people involved have the same historical narrative to guide their route. For those of us who are Christians, it would be safe to say that unless our church is built on a reservation, every church in Canada and the United States is built on land stolen from the Indigenous people forcibly removed against their will from the very locations where we now worship. It is not a stretch to say that the religious freedoms of these two countries were bought with the currency of injustice paid in blood by the original inhabitants of these lands.

I had the privilege of meeting a delegation of Indigenous Christians from Canada and the United States at the offices of the Christian Reformed Church of North America where this group had gathered to share their stories using a small-group activity they call the “Blanket Exercise” (5). I attended the Blanket Exercise, and the next day we gathered around a table to talk and hear more about each other’s stories.


(1) https://www.infoplease.com/american-indians-numbers-1

(2) https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/89-656-x/89-656-x2015001-eng.htm

(3) https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2016-1.3516122/majority-of-indigenous-canadians-remain-christians-despite-residential-schools-1.3516132

(4). http://evangelicalfocus.com/world/1777/Christianity_grows_among_Native_Americans

(5). https://www.crcna.org/aboriginal

Episode 43: Stacia Hoeksema & Jevon Willis – “Racial Identity Development Part 2.”

This is the second episode on our two-episode mini-series on Racial Identity Development. If you haven’t had a chance to listen to the first episode yet, go back and listen to Episode 42.

Every leader who is serious about addressing racism in the church must start with understanding his/her own racial identity. This goes deeper than just knowing what racial categories they identify with, it is about knowing how those racial labels have affected our people groups and ourselves. The power of racism affects us all, whether we are aware of these effects or not. America’s system of racism was developed to advantage some people, at the expense of other people, in terms of resource extraction, labor, wealth accumulation and legal power. Echoes of this system have reverberated through the decades, often taking the form of new laws and policies which continue to have the effect of segregating and disempowering communities of color. The outcome of this system is that for many people in the dominant culture, their way of life is unquestioned, generally more comfortable, and assumed to be superior, standard or “normal.” Individuals who awaken to the knowledge that other ethnic communities don’t share in their privileges often experience this realization like a death, vacillating between the various emotions of the grief cycle (denial, anger, guilt, and depression) before having periods of acceptance that look forward to dismantling racism in the future.

But for People of Color, the effects of racism are not limited to intellectual abstractions. Their reality is quite the opposite, because the effects of racism are experienced often, if not continuously. For many, life starts from conception being affected by racism, being born into a racialized society where black and brown people too often still live in communities where the compounded effects of generations of systemic racism are everywhere. But even if you get some advantages, it is impossible to avoid all the effects of racism in society. After all, a person never gets to take off his/her skin to take a break from a racialized society.

But the subtler experiences of racism are perhaps the most poisonous because they don’t come from outside, they come from within in the form of self-doubt in ones opinions, intellectual capacity, or potential for achievement. This internalized racism is often experienced as a perpetual sense of being inferior or being “non-standard” and learning how to navigate people and systems serving the majority culture whose objectives may deviate or even denigrate their own. While it is sometimes possible to retreat from the racism of outside society for brief times, resisting the sense of oppression and doubt that plays over and over in one’s mind is quite another matter.

Today’s guests to the Antioch Podcast are generously sharing their individual stories with us today, to use their lived experiences as examples of how different people develop their own racial identities. Stacia Hoeksema is a Professor of Social Work at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Mi. Jevon Willis is the Assistant Director of the Center for Diversity and Inclusion at Hope College in Holland, Mi. Both Stacia and Jevon are social workers and Anti-Racism Workshop Facilitators for Madison Church, as well as friends outside of their professional circles.


Episode 42:Stacia Hoeksema & Jevon Willis – “Racial Identity Development Part 1.”

Every leader who is serious about addressing racism in the church must start with understanding his/her own racial identity. This goes deeper than just knowing what racial categories they identify with, it is about knowing how those racial labels have affected our people groups and ourselves. The power of racism affects us all, whether we are aware of these effects or not. America’s system of racism was developed to advantage some people, at the expense of other people, in terms of resource extraction, labor, wealth accumulation and legal power. Echoes of this system have reverberated through the decades, often taking the form of new laws and policies which continue to have the effect of segregating and disempowering communities of color. The outcome of this system is that for many people in the dominant culture, their way of life is unquestioned, generally more comfortable, and assumed to be superior, standard or “normal.” Individuals who awaken to the knowledge that other ethnic communities don’t share in their privileges often experience this realization like a death, vacillating between the various emotions of the grief cycle (denial, anger, guilt, and depression) before having periods of acceptance that look forward to dismantling racism in the future.

But for People of Color, the effects of racism are not limited to intellectual abstractions. Their reality is quite the opposite, because the effects of racism are experienced often, if not continuously. For many, life starts from conception being affected by racism, being born into a racialized society where black and brown people too often still live in communities where the compounded effects of generations of systemic racism are everywhere. But even if you get some advantages, it is impossible to avoid all the effects of racism in society. After all, a person never gets to take off his/her skin to take a break from a racialized society.

But the subtler experiences of racism are perhaps the most poisonous because they don’t come from outside, they come from within in the form of self-doubt in ones opinions, intellectual capacity, or potential for achievement. This internalized racism is often experienced as a perpetual sense of being inferior or being “non-standard” and learning how to navigate people and systems serving the majority culture whose objectives may deviate or even denigrate their own. While it is sometimes possible to retreat from the racism of outside society for brief times, resisting the sense of oppression and doubt that plays over and over in one’s mind is quite another matter.

Today’s guests to the Antioch Podcast are generously sharing their individual stories with us today, to use their lived experiences as examples of how different people develop their own racial identities. Stacia Hoeksema is a Professor of Social Work at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Mi. Jevon Willis is the Assistant Director of the Center for Diversity and Inclusion at Hope College in Holland, Mi. Both Stacia and Jevon are social workers and Anti-Racism Workshop Facilitators for Madison Church, as well as friends outside of their professional circles.

Let’s go now and hear the first part of this two-part interview:

Episode 41: Eric Nykamp – “Vacation, Community and the Church.”

I’m getting ready to leave to go on vacation. Probably some of you will also be planning some kind of trip over the summer where you won’t be at your home church. If you are fortunate enough, you might want to visit another church to see how they worship as a part of your trip. For my family, we try to visit other multiethnic churches when we are on the road . . . or in our case this year, overseas to visit my wife’s family in Hong Kong.

So . . . whenever you visit another church, it is inevitable that we humans compare what we think is normal about our home church to whatever church we are visiting.

So here are questions I ask about my own congregation at home, as well as the congregations I visit while traveling anywhere.

1.) What ethnic groups make up the community around the church building?

2.) What ethnic groups make up the congregation?

3.) What ethnic groups make up the leadership in this church?

4.) Whose ethnic songs are used in worship? (You could also examine cultural rules for timeliness, emotional expression etc.)

5.) What can you learn from noticing the similarities and differences between these three groups of people?

So let me start with my own home church. We are one church in three campuses, with each Madison Church campus in a different neighborhood.

The original campus of Madison is in the Madison Square Neighborhood of Grand Rapids, a neighborhood with a predominantly African-American population and a sizeable Latinx population which is gradually becoming more and more of a presence here. There are very few white folks in the neighborhood, and nearly no Asian or Native Americans. The housing stock is from the early 20th century, built over what had previously been a shanty-town on the outskirts of Grand Rapids. Many of the homes show signs of neglect, though there are some noteworthy examples of restoration taking place as the area is seeing some recent re-investment.

A couple of miles north on Madison Avenue is Madison’s Ford Campus, which meets in a Public Middle-School gym in a neighborhood that is nearly entirely African-American falling solidly within the former red-lined area of Grand Rapids. The housing stock is smaller homes from around the turn of the twentieth century, some in good repair, and some in a state of disrepair. However, it borders a neighborhood of historic homes which have been recognized for their historical value and saved from dereliction by a historic preservation committee. This neighborhood is home to many middle and upper-middle class white people who want to live near the revitalized downtown area. The difference in housing stock is striking in this neighborhood, and the two populations of the two neighborhoods rarely mingle.

Miles away on the northern side of Grand Rapids is Madison’s 4-year-old North campus. Like the Ford campus, Madison North meets in a school gym. Unlike its two sibling congregations, Madison North lies far outside the former red-lined areas of Grand Rapids. It is not far from where a group of history-making African American families bought their own land and built their own houses during the Civil Rights era, as a way to escape the housing discrimination rampant in Grand Rapids at the time. The neighborhood Madison North calls home is a mix of post World War Two housing through the early 1970’s, with a number of low-income and apartment housing complexes throughout the neighborhoods. The area is predominantly white, but there are pockets within the neighborhood with higher-concentrations of African American people.

This is what our neighborhoods are like, but it isn’t what the makeup of our congregations are like. None of our congregations represent the ethnic mixes of the neighborhoods where our church buildings are located. The closest may be Madison North, but that is mainly due to the larger white population in that area.

However, at each campus, there is an intentional mix of ethnic leadership, with the Ford and Square Campuses having the largest and more diverse leadership staff, and the North campus (being the newest) with a very small, and less diverse staff. All the campuses recognize the importance of raising up and attracting leaders from a variety of ethnic communities, as well as the dis-service placing someone in a leadership position they are not suited for just for the sake of building a diverse staff. If our campuses did not value having diverse leadership, we might as well forget the idea of growing an empowered multiethnic church community. Without diverse leadership, a multiethnic church would be little more than a multiethnic church plantation (https://thewitnessbcc.com/unhealthy-multi-ethnic-church-plantation/ ).

At Madison Churches, we often talk about trying to develop inclusive church cultures that are welcoming to all. But with so many ethnic communities and worship styles just in our city, who exactly are we trying to include? Here is the latest thinking on this matter. Traditionally, we have talked about designing worship services that draw on the following musical homes:

– Traditional Hymns
– Classic Praise and Worship
– Contemporary Praise and Worship
– Global Praise (at Madison, this often is Spanish-language songs and African Gospel)
– Contemporary Gospel
– Traditional Gospel & Spirituals

But this may be a shortcut way to think about who makes up our community. Our song choices need to be a reflection of the following three factors: Who constitutes our congregation, who constitutes our leadership, and who constitutes our neighborhood. In other words, who is already here and hearing the message, who is here and giving the message, and who needs to be help the church hear God’s message more fully?

So let’s ask ourselves a few questions about our home church cultures, and for a point of comparison, what we might learn from asking these same questions of our brother and sister congregations we might worship with while on vacation this summer.

We are taking a summer vacation on the Antioch Podcast for a month or so, but when we come back, I’m going to share with you a little about my exploration of multiethnic churches in Hong Kong over the summer. We’ve got some other great episodes percolating for you to hear in season two – episodes on racial identity development, anti-racism training, and some great book recommendations from Retonia! So . . . watch your podcast feed! We’re coming back soon!

Episode 40: We Talk Different – “Transformative Friendships.”

My wife and I consider ourselves to be fortunate in life because we have been well-loved by numerous people who deeply impacted our lives. Most of us long for this kind of transformative connection with people. We are fortunate when we find people whom we can relate to, people we can be unapologetically ourselves with when we are together. This past Sunday I met with two college students who were tearful at having to say goodbye to the friends and relationships they had formed at our church now that they had graduated. The value of authentic friendships cannot be overstated.

One of the joys of listening to podcasts is getting to hear the same people over and over again. The hosts and casts can become like friends we listen to every episode. As a podcaster myself, I spend a fair amount of time searching and listening to podcasts on race and religion. There are a handful out there, but some of my favorites are those where a cluster of friends switch on the microphone every so often and let us listeners listen in on the conversation they are having. Finding a multiethnic group of friends who talk about the things that make them different (and similar) is more of a challenge.

So imagine my joy when I found the podcast “We Talk Different” a podcast that talks about race, religion, politics, gender and . . . basically everything! Three friends, all Christians, sit down weekly to talk about whatever is happening in the world at the moment they turn on the mic. They like to say that they don’t talk like everyone else. They talk different. And truthfully, ever since I came across this podcast, I’ve been wanting to talk with them! So, it was this podcaster’s dream to find a way to do this crossover episode with Ashley, Elijah and Ryan who make it a point of sharing their lives with all of us in podcast land from deep in the heart of Texas.

I’m not going to drag out this prologue . . .

Let’s wrap this up and listen to the cast of We Talk Different talk about their friendship, and how they learned how to talk together. And if you think this kind of crossover episode is fun, I’d love to hear your thoughts whether or not you would be interested in attending a live event some time where Christian podcasters who talk about race and religion get together maybe in 2019 or 2020. I’d like to gauge the level of interest in this, so leave comments on our Facebook and Twitter pages or send us an email at Antiochpod@gmail.com.

Let’s go now and listen to this conversation.


Episode 39: Pastor John Eigege – “The Gospel of Gentrification.”

According to recent statistics by CBS News, two zip codes in Houston’s third ward are among the top areas being affected by gentrification in 2018. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/does-gentrification-help-or-hurt-our-major-cities/

This is where we find today’s guest, a missionary from Nigeria to America, Pastor John Eigege. The gentrifying of Houston’s third ward is rapidly changing the neighborhood he has felt called by God to serve, a neighborhood whose historic significance to the city of Houston is in danger of being demolished, its residents displaced, and its story forgotten. He has written a series of three thought-provoking articles for the Office of Social Justice of the Christian Reformed Church entitled ‘”The Gospel of Gentrification” (http://dojustice.crcna.org/article/gospel-gentrification ) in response to what he is seeing in his mission field: Houston’s Third Ward in Texas. I met John a number of years ago through some mutual friends, and wanted to catch up to him and hear his story after reading what he wrote.

So I invite you now to listen in on our conversation as Pastor John Eigege and I talk about how gentrification is affecting his ministry to the people of Houston’s Third Ward as a missionary Chaplain through the Christian Reformed Church.

Episode 38: Pastor Joy Bonnema & Matt Krieg – “Resurrection Matters for Healthy Sexuality.”

This present moment in America will likely be remembered historically for the many social justice movements springing up in response to the societal ills presently plaguing this nation. Black Lives Matter arose in response to the numerous documented incidents of police violence against people of color. The recent March for Our Lives came about as teens respond to the ongoing plague of school shootings across the United States. The Women’s March, #TimesUp and the #MeToo movement have brought the culture of sexual harassment and abuse into the light, as brave women (and a few men) publicly disclose their stories of being raped and sexually abused by powerful men in the public eye.

The #ChurchToo movement has also made it clear that these instances of abuse go far beyond the news headlines of the prior decades where there were scandalous accusation of priests abusing children under the cover of the Catholic church. No corner of the Christian world, it seems, is free from the stain of this sin. Likely, there are numerous stories yet to be told. As a therapist, I’ve heard many. Many churches have cultures where the stories of women are discredited, or where women are encouraged to stay in abusive situations. Other churches acknowledge the sin of sexual abuse, but emphasize forgiving the abuser more than seeking justice for the abused. Christians need to examine their hearts, church cultures, and church systems and make the needed changes in response to this cultural moment. And… there likely will be some people who will be swept up and falsely accused of sexual misconduct, but will be unable to document their innocence. These stories keep coming, and clearly the church in America is no different than the rest of society in having denied, ignored, or under-responded to allegations of sexual misconduct.

This is nothing new. Both the Old and New Testaments are strewn with stories of sexual brokenness, though typically these stories are also “under-reported” in the pages of children’s story Bibles – the same place where the typical Christian adult’s Biblical literacy often ends. All Christians, those leading churches, and those in the pews, are affected. Fortunately, our God is neither surprised nor unequipped to help us address this most historical and still contemporary problem.

Today’s episode comes to you from two prior guests of the Antioch Podcast: Pastor Joy Bonnema and Matt Krieg. This is a recording of a sermon they presented together at Madison Church’s North Campus entitled “Resurrection Matters for Healthy Sexuality.” This is an excellent example of how to talk about this most delicate of topics scripturally and directly, without running the risk of being graphic or overly descriptive. At a time when so many leaders are falling due to allegations of sexual abuse, this message is all the more timely.

Episode 37: Retonia Brashier – “A Journey of Awakening.”

I joined my multiethnic church in 1990 at the invitation of my high-school art teacher. As an angst- filled teen, she told me that her church was a “good place for hurting people.” As a result, I found a lot of healing, in particular from being mentored by a number of African-American worship leaders whose transparency and music helped me discover a music that spoke truth with a level of emotion that underscored the power of the lyrics which words on a page could not achieve alone. For me as a white person, being invited to discover the gospel music tradition which married profound scriptural truth with palpable delivery gave me a place in which to pour out my heart to a God who gave me hope while walking with me when I didn’t know if I could take one more step. Being part of a multiethnic congregation helped me find healing.

But this isn’t the case for everyone. In the 1990’s through the turn of the millennium, the phrases “celebrating diversity” an “racial-reconciliation” became familiar terms in larger, white churches, popularized by mass movements such as Promise Keepers which touted cross-racial friendships as a goal for the faithful. I recall reading the 2005 Christianity Today article entitled “All Churches Should Be Multiracial” and thinking to myself (with a twist of pride) that my church were a little ahead of the curve on this issue as we had been a multiethnic congregation since the 1970’s. But the images of racial harmony in multiethnic churches began to be tested in the second decade of the 21st century. In 2012, Trayvon Martin was shot while walking through a neighborhood while eating candy and wearing a hooded sweatshirt by someone who thought he looked suspicious. While not an isolated case, the drumbeat of racial injustice arose again in 2014 with protests erupting in the Ferguson neighborhood of St. Louis, Missouri following the police shooting of Michael Brown. The shootings of black and brown people by the police were frequently on the news and social media, leading the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement. Questions of racism and injustice were in the news and a topic of regular discussion for all Americans, including those in multiethnic churches.

In 2016, 81% of white Evangelicals voted for Donald Trump, a candidate who regularly espoused policies and used language which at best could be considered racially insensitive, and at worst publicly affirmed the similar expressions of overtly racist organizations. Following the 2016 election and accelerating after the 2017 white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, many of evangelical megachurches which touted multiracial harmony a decade earlier now began to see the ranks of the people of color in their congregation thin. This was expertly expressed in the 2018 article in the New York Times titled “ A Quiet Exodus: Why Black Worshipers Are Leaving White Evangelical Churches”.
Retonia Brasier is one such person. I got to know Retonia in a private facebook group for Christians passionate about antiracism and Christianity. After eventually deciding to connect by phone, and hearing her story, I asked Retonia if she would be willing to share her story on the podcast.

We are intentionally keeping the identity of her now former church private, because this is not a story being told to “get back” at any people or institution in particular. Because this story has resonance around the country, Retonia is sharing her story as an example of how multiethnic churches who are unwilling or do not know how to talk about racism actually harm people in the church by allowing the sin of racism rooted in white supremacy to remain intact. This exodus of people of color from predominantly white churches is happening all over the United States as there is a reawakening among many people that the church, that God cares not just about saving us from our individual sin, but also to rid the world of the systemic sins of society at large.
Let’s go now and hear Retonia Brasier’s story.



Episode 36: Rev. Ricardo Tavárez – “Designing Worship”

It is my pleasure to welcome back Rev. Ricardo Tavárez to the Antioch Podcast. Ricardo is an ordained Minister of the Word in the Christian Reformed Church of North America. He is the pastor of En Vivo Church, a growing multi-ethnic and bilingual (Spanish/English) congregation in the Burton Heights neighborhood of Grand Rapids. He was a previous guest on the podcast way back in Episode 14 where he talked about bilingual worship at En Vivo. In this talk, Rev. Ricardo talks about designing worship, based in part on Chapter 5 of Sandra Maria Van Opstal’s book “The Next Worship”. You can connect with Ricardo and En Vivo Church by following the link in the show notes of this episode.


Episode 35: Laura Pritchard – “Hosting Well”

It is a great honor today to introduce today’s presenter, Laura Pritchard. Laura is presently the Director of Multicultural Living at Madison Church’s Square Campus. Among her many duties is oversight of the work of the anti-racism team, outreach to the Madison Square neighborhood, and leading worship at Madison Church’s Square Campus. She has mentored numerous worship leaders over the years, modeling by example how to love a multiethnic congregation by learning and singing the worship songs of many people groups while continually striving to do so with increasing excellence. Laura is an experienced anti-racism trainer, facilitating “Understanding Racism” 2.5-day workshops both at Madison Church and other churches around Michigan. For decades Laura has been a long-serving member of Madison Church’s leadership team, offering a voice of wisdom and often challenging the church to continually grow in its desire to be a more fully reconciled body that actively works to dismantle systemic racism. She knows Madison Church is not a perfect church and yet has stayed committed to the mission of this body in spite of numerous hurts, misunderstandings, and difficult periods. She also is a regular panelist on the Antioch Podcast, and has been a guest on the Truth’s Table podcast. Above all else, Laura is a faithful servant of God, walking out what she believes by her faithfulness to this imperfect body of multiethnic believes at Madison Church.

On a personal note, Laura has deeply impacted my own life. I met Laura in 1992 through Madison’s Gospel Choir, and our relationship continued through serval worship teams in the ensuing decades. Laura’s commitment to truth-telling and transparency about her faith and her struggles, including struggles about race, deeply shaped me. Her voice and passion as a singer inspired me and helped to shape me as a gospel musician. I have been fortunate to know and be sharpened by my friend, Laura Pritchard.

Let’s go now to hear Laura give this presentation, entitled “Hosting Well.”


This is a link to the article by Daniel Jose’ Camacho briefly mentioned in this presentation:

Do Multicultural Churches Reinforce Racism?

Episode 34: Kinita Kadnar Schripsema – “Understanding Culture”

This latest series of the Antioch podcast is called Worshiping Diversely Together, exploring the themes of multicultural leadership in worship from Sandra Maria Van Opstal’s book “The Next Worship: Glorifying God in a Diverse World” . For those of you following this series in the book, today’s lecture is based on chapter 7, which talks about the importance of acknowledging our elders, intentionality, and patience as skills multiethnic leaders need to have in leading multiethnic congregations. Author and speaker Kinita Schripsema shares her perspectives on these skills in today’s talk.

Kinita is a Jesus lover, wife, and mother to four children. She was born in India and has lived cross-culturally since the age of 5 between Canada and the U.S.A. As a published author and speaker, Kinita shares, with passion, her love for Jesus and her desire to see other believers grow in their faith in the spaces and places God has called them to be.

In this talk, titled “Understanding Culture”, Kinita gives an overview of her Understanding Culture workshop, which she gives in a longer format to groups and churches in the US and Canada. Links to Kinita, her book and talks are provided here in the shownotes for this episode.


Episode 33: Rev. Shannon Jammal-Hollemans – “Food Fights: Reconciliation in Worship.”

Welcome to Episode 33 of the Antioch Podcast, a podcast about learning to lead in the multiethnic church. Today we return to our series on Sandra Maria VanOpstal’s book The Next Worship: Glorifying God in a Diverse World. For those of you who have already purchased a copy of The Next Worship, you may have picked up on this already. If you haven’t purchased a copy of Sandra Maria Van Opstal’s book, you can do so here by clicking on the link provided in the shownotes of this episode.

Leading the discussion of Chapter three – Food Fights: Reconciliation in Worship, is Rev. Shannon Jammal-Hollemans. Shannon is a Collaborative Program Developer for the Christian Reformed Church in North America. She serves in the Offices of Faith Formation, Social Justice and Race Relations. She is a married mother of three with a Master of Divinity from Calvin Theological Seminary. Shannon was ordained by Oakdale Park CRC for her work with the denomination in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

The Church’s One Foundation

Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow

FYI í Today’s episode is powered by vibranium from our branch offices in Wakanda. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, its because you haven’t seen Black Panther yet, so . . . make that a priority whether you are a Wakandan, a colonizer, or none of the above . And if you want to hear three wonderful discussions of the film, check out the Black Panther and Wakanda Episodes from three of my favorite podcasts: Pass the Mic, Truth’s Table, and We Talk Different for three thoughtful discussions of this blockbuster film. We will provide links to these episodes in the shownotes for Episode 33 on AntiochPodcast.org.

Pass The Mic LIVE: Black Panther Part 1

Episode 32: Pastor James Lee – “Is PB&J Ethnic Food?”

Welcome to Episode 32 of the Antioch Podcast, a podcast about learning to lead in the multiethnic church.

Today’s episode is the second in a series of lectures given at Madison Church’s Square Campus in the spring of 2017 based on the book The Next Worship, by Sandra Maria Van Opstal. This talk, called “Is PB&J Ethnic Food?” is drawn from Chapter 2 of her book. If you have not read The Next Worship for yourself yet, we at the Antioch Podcast would strongly encourage you to purchase a copy to augment what you are hearing in this podcast series.

Now about today’s presenter.

Pastor James Lee was born and raised in Temple City, CA. He completed his undergraduate studies in History at Calvin College (Grand Rapids, MI). While at Calvin, James was fortunate enough to serve in a variety of capacities as a student leader, including being one of Calvin’s Worship Apprentices. Upon graduation, James received a call to serve as a Youth and Young Adults Minister at an RCA congregation in Roslyn Heights, NY. After a few years, James heard God call him to return to Grand Rapids, this time to study at Calvin Theological Seminary where he is slated to graduate with his Masters of Divinity in 2018. Today, James currently serves as the English Ministry pastor at Korean Grace CRC, and also serves as a worship mentor to Calvin College students. James loves to talk about and lead worship, mentor worship leaders, as well as explore innovative ways to bridge gaps between cultures and generations in worship.

James is happily married to his beautiful wife Jin Young. At the time of this recording, James and Jin were expecting their first child, who was born on October 8th of 2017.

Episode 31: Rev. Reggie Smith – “Tension at the Table.”

Welcome to Episode 31 of the Antioch Podcast!

This is the beginning of a six-part series of talks called “Worshiping Diversely Together” inspired by Sandra Maria Van Opstal’s recent book The Next Worship: Glorifying God in a Diverse World. Van Opstal was our first guest on the podcast, way back in Episode 4. As we’ve said in earlier episodes, this podcast comes out of Madison Church, a 100+ year-old multiethnic congregation in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We’ve had our share of struggles and success over the past century, and we would be the first to admit that we don’t have all the answers to how to worship well together as a successful multiethnic congregation. In fact, we’ve made some really big mistakes over the years, mistakes that we’ve learned from, and some that we still make. And as host of this podcast and Director of Worship Design at one of our campus locations, I want to personalize this: I’ve made my own share of mistakes in helping my congregational circle worship well together. At Madison Church, we don’t have all the answers, but we are committed to having ongoing conversations about how we can better follow scripture so that we can worship well together.

This is where Van Opstal’s book comes in. Last year, one of our former Worship Directors, Shelli Fynewever, read this book and felt that this book would be very helpful for us at Madison to read together. Many of our worship team members got copies of the book and read it. Over the ministry year, Shelli and her intern Ben Hoekman, put together this six-part lecture series for the Wednesday Night Out mid-week ministry at one of our campus locations. These talks were recorded, and we are releasing them now to you here.

I would encourage you, if you haven’t already done so, to purchase a copy of The Next Worship, so you can read some of the material that inspired each talk in the series. This episode, by Rev. Reggie Smith, covers Chapter 1: Tension at the Table.

Rev. Reggie Smith was previously featured on the Antioch Worship Leadership Podcast in Episode 23. Rev. Smith is the former pastor of Roosevelt Park CRC and the present Director of the Office of Race Relations and the Office of Social Justice for the Christian Reformed Church in North America (CRCNA). In addition, he works as Program Affiliate for the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, is a regular contributing writer to the Grand Rapids Times, and is a husband and father. He and his family attend Madison Church’s Square Campus.
Let’s go now and listen to the episode.

Musical Credits:
Dianne Williams “Jesus Can Work It Out”

Jaou Santos – church during mass
A Mighty Fortress Is Our God (Grace Community Church) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evO6rejRSuI

Episode 30: Laurie and Matt Krieg – “Caring Well Together.”

Opinions about the rights of LGBTQ people is rapidly changing both in the US and around the world in the past two decades.

According to recent data collected by the Pew Research Center on Religion and Public Life in June 2017 ( http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/),

“. . . in 2001, Americans opposed same-sex marriage by a margin of 57% to 35%.

Since then, support for same-sex marriage has steadily grown. And today, support for same-sex marriage is at its highest point since Pew Research Center began polling on this issue. Based on polling in 2017, a majority of Americans (62%) support same-sex marriage, while 32% oppose it.”

When looking at how religious affiliation affects opinions on same-sex marriage, all religious groups in the United States are seeing an increase in approval rates for same-sex couples to marry. The report states that:
“Two-thirds of Catholics now support same-sex marriage, as do a similar share of white mainline Protestants (67% and 68% respectively).”

Support for same-sex marriage among black Protestants has now increased to 44% and white evangelical Protestants, while the lowest of all religious groups, even within this group support for same-sex marriage has grown from 27% in 2016 to 35% today.”

Now support for legally-recognized same-sex marriage does not necessarily carry over into church polity. There is considerable debate within the church in the United States, and around the world, about if or how individual people with same-sex attraction, and legally-married same-sex couples, are enfolded within congregations. Issues of scriptural interpretation, church governance, as well as cultural issues come into play with these discussions. Denominations, Bible Scholars, and Theologians continue to wrestle with these issues, often times coming to different conclusions, making it even more difficult for individual Christians to know who to take their cues from when relationships with real people are at stake.

How many relationships are at stake? Recent estimates of the LGBT population in the United States vary between 3.8% (http://news.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx) to 5% to as high as 10% (http://time.com/lgbt-stats/). This is similar to the stats in Europe where on average, 6% of Europeans identified as LGBTQ, with countries reporting numbers as low as 1.5% in Hungary to 7.4% in Germany (https://daliaresearch.com/counting-the-lgbt-population-6-of-europeans-identify-as-lgbt/). Again, even getting an idea of how many people identify as LGBTQ is quite difficult, but what is clear is that more and more people in the church either are LGBTQ themselves, or have a friends or family member who identifies as LGBTQ. The multiethnic church, is no exception. Multiethnic churches often are places where many LGBTQ people who are also people of color go to, in hopes of finding faith communities that affirm both their ethnic and sexual orientation.

Into this “great debate” around how the church responds to its members of the LGBTQ community step Laurie and Matt Krieg of Hole in My Heart Ministries (https://www.himhministries.com). I had an opportunity to visit with Laurie and Matt a week ago at Matt’s other office at Caring Well Counseling where they took a break from moving in furniture and assembling bookcases to talk with me about their ministry. Here is a little about Laurie and Matt from their website:

“Laurie Krieg is the founder and the executive director of Hole in my Heart Ministries, a compassionate teaching, writing, and mentoring ministry for those wrestling with issues related to sexuality. Laurie daily submits her broken same-sex sexuality to the lordship of Christ while married to her best friend (Matt Krieg), and comes alive sharing how and why she does that. Matt daily submits his broken heterosexual sexuality to the lordship of Christ while married to his best friend (Laurie), and comes alive sharing how and why he does that. Matt was a vital part of the launch of HIMH Ministries when it began in June 2015, and now works as a licensed professional counselor with Caring Well Counseling.

Laurie speaks and writes frequently including at HIMH’s Caring Well Conference, alongside Dr. Preston Sprinkle at the Q Conference, at numerous university settings include Wheaton College Chapel, has worked with Our Daily Bread’s Off the Page team, has been on Chris Fabry Live! and was featured on the DVD curriculum The Whole Sex Talk by the Pregnancy Resource Center. Laurie serves on the Board of Directors for The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender.”

In addition, Laurie and Matt have their own podcast, called the Hole in My Heart Podcast (https://www.himhministries.com/videos–podcasts.html), which they record together.

All the links mentioned in this opening, including links to Hole In My Heart Ministries, can be found in the show notes for this episode. This is one interview in what will be an occasional topic of this podcast, as we talk about worshiping diversely together.

At the end of this episode, Laurie and Matt reference a pastoral paper from the Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender on low and high-buffer churches. These, and other resources from a traditional Biblical view on same-sex marriage, can be found through the link below:


Episode 29: Pastor Brad Knetsch – “Learning to Lead”

Today’s episode is a recording of a conversation I had with Pastor Brad Knetsch in which he shares his perspective on some of the things he has learned leading a multi-ethnic church as a young, white, male pastor. Pastor Brad serves as the Pastor of Madison Church’s Ford Campus in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Brad loves Jesus, the Gospel, and how the Holy Spirit is at work in his city. His passion is to fan into flame gifts-based, team-based vision, ministry, and evangelism.

Now, before we go any deeper into this episode, a few things need to be acknowledged.
This is a conversation between two white men about leading in multi-ethnic churches. It is quite likely that Pastor Brad and I may have similar blind-spots as we both grew up in the same church denomination, and have similar races, gender and ethnicity. My co-host partners have not been available to record with me lately, which ordinarily would help correct the kinds of biases which often happen when people who are quite similar talk. They do so much in terms of leadership in our church, and sometimes, that means that they cannot do everything that they would like to do. I have their blessing to do some of these interviews on my own.

Having their blessing matters to me. One of the values of the Antioch Worship Leadership Podcast is to highlight the perspectives, stories, research, and insights which people of color bring to the multi-ethnic church. Too often, even in multi-ethnic churches, the voices of white people, and especially white men, are given a disproportionate place of privilege. In fact, many church conferences – even multiethnic church conferences – are still dominated by the voices of white men, a fact which should get anyone’s bias radar bleeping like crazy! So. . . if your bias radar is going off right now because two white guys are going to talk about race and leadership in the church, I hope you see this interview in the context of the broader range of interviews and discussion which this podcast has offered, and will continue to offer in the future.

But here is the thing: There are a lot of white men in leadership in multiethnic churches. And we as white guys come with our white male baggage as people who often have a lot of listening and learning to do before we can even be good partners with, let alone lead, people of color. Too often we white men assume that we already have needed skills and knowledge to lead, but overlook the more important, slower work of earning trust through long-term relationships. We don’t know how blind we really are to systemic racism.

Because of our blindness and complicity, we as white men have done the most damage, individually, collectively, and systemically to people of color in the church. This is both true historically and is still true today. We as white men benefit the most from the racism that saturates our culture. And into this sin-saturated mess . . . some of us white men are called to be leaders of multiethnic churches, and we lead imperfectly. Our leadership is continually affected by our sin-nature.

So, as you listen to this interview, I hope you hear Pastor Brad Knetsch as a leader who is learning while he leads. He doesn’t have all the answers. But, even though he is an imperfect leader, if you listen, you might get a glimpse of how white men in leadership in multiethnic churches may want to model their ministry to be more effective leaders in the increasingly browning context of the multiethnic church.

Episode 28: Dr. David Daniels III – “The African Roots of the Reformation”

Today on the Antioch Worship Leadership Podcast, we are going to explore the story of the African influences on Martin Luther, the Father of the Protestant Reformation. We will talk with Dr. David Daniels III, the Henry Winters Luce Professor of World Christianity at McCormick Theological Seminary in Chicago. For those of you who want to read Dr. Daniel’s articles for yourself, scroll down to the links provided in the show notes for this episode, or head over to Antiochpodcast.org and check out the episode page.

Articles by Dr. Daniels cited in this episode: